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On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 9:47:01 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
> On 9/30/23 8:40 AM, bmoore wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 30, 2023 at 8:30:37 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
> >> On 9/30/23 7:45 AM, bmoore wrote:
> >>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
> >>>> On 9/29/23 1:46 PM, bmoore wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 12:18:52 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
> >>>>>> On 9/29/23 12:04 PM, bmoore wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 10:31:24 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 9/29/23 9:22 AM, bmoore wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Friday, September 29, 2023 at 9:14:27 AM UTC-7, jdeluise wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> bmoore <
bmo...@nyx.net> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> We`re getting ahead of ourselves here, but OK.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Jesus said many things that contradict what seems
normal to many of
> >>>>>>>>>>> us, but on reflection, are true.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> The more than symbolic part stems from the belief
that he is God but
> >>>>>>>>>>> also just a dude. I hope you know I am not trying
to gaslight you into
> >>>>>>>>>>> what to believe. You seem to have a Zen background
on some level, and
> >>>>>>>>>>> that`s great.
> >>>>>>>>>> I see, you don`t want to answer the question. No problem.
> >>>>>>>>> Sorry, what question? Seriously. Do bear in mind,
please, that not directly answering a question is not some kind of
avoidance,
> >>>>>>>> Diverting here, because this really shook me when I
realized this, but
> >>>>>>>> you see the studied failure to respond to a direct
question in Japanese
> >>>>>>>> culture a lot.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> When I first encountered the minor remnants of this
cultural oddity in
> >>>>>>>> my wife`s brothers, and to a lesser degree, in herself,
I took as as a
> >>>>>>>> personal insult. This is because basically, it appears that they are
> >>>>>>>> intentionally and knowingly ignoring you.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> I don`t even do that to people I don`t like, so of
course it rubbed me
> >>>>>>>> the wrong way.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But I came to find that to them it meant something
different. It is an
> >>>>>>>> attempt to either avoid a situation where they feel they
will lose face,
> >>>>>>>> or more directly, a situation where their only answer
means lying in an
> >>>>>>>> obvious manner, or losing face.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This then leads to the notion that they`re not trying
to ignore me, but
> >>>>>>>> are too chickenshit to admit to failure.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Then you get over that, too. It`s simply a different
priority placed on
> >>>>>>>> being "right" than I`m used to.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Because I`ve never really seen the need for face-saving
> >>>>>>>> rhetorically--you simply take your lumps, learn a lesson, and move
> >>>>>>>> on--I`ve not done much of it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And an interesting side note: my wife does very little
of it now, after
> >>>>>>>> nearly 40 years, because with me, there`s not a penalty
for being wrong.
> >>>>>>>> Only for attempting to intentionally hide it.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Everybody fucks up; you just learn from it and move on.
Try not to do it
> >>>>>>>> twice, the same way.
> >>>>>>> Socrates was well-known for answering a question with a question.
> >>>>>> That was because he was a smart-alec.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> In those days it was a capital offense, apparently.
> >>>>>>> Not directly answering a query is not in any way a logical fallacy.
> >>>>>> I believe that the technical term is that it`s a "dodge".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ;^)
> >>>>> Do you guys really believe that every question is worthy
of a direct response? i could get into examples, but really?
> >>>> Any honestly intended question, and by this I mean was it asked
> >>>> seriously seeking added clarification. And as the person under
> >>>> interrogation, you make the call, also in a spirit of honesty.
> >>>>
> >>>> Sure. To not do so is purposefully rude and demeaning. You can, of
> >>>> course, choose to be rude and demeaning--there are appropriate occasions
> >>>> for it.
> >>>>
> >>>> How do you see it?
> >>> In this case, I don`t think that I can give a meaningful
answer in a few paragraphs. To understand where I`m coming from requires a
lot of context.
> >>>
> >>> Do you believe in the Jungian concept of a collective unconscious?
> >> How does it differ from evolved instinctual response, implying a
> >> *parallel* circumstantial response to any given emerging situation
> >> rather than a shared unconscious--which implies some sort of a
> >> connection? E.g., a man in a room in Jakarta opens a book at exactly the
> >> same time as a man in a room in Bogota. The frontispiece is a large
> >> color image of a coiled pit viper. They both flinch at precisely the
> >> same time.
> >>
> >> Are these connected in any direct way? To me, it is similar to noting
> >> that these same two men also breathe while in the rooms.
> > The point is that it`s not so much parallel as all rooted in the same thing.
> Evolved fear of being bitten by a snake?
That`s a common example, yes.
>
> Those without it are in added danger when encountering a snake, right?
>
> Is he saying that we all share an unconscious desire to eat when hungry?
> Would this be an example?
>
> Do you have an example that you`d like to use here? Maybe that will help.
https://study.com/academy/lesson/collective-unconscious-definition-examples.html
#:~:text=This%20collective%20unconscious%20definition%20includes,fear%20of%20sna
kes%20or%20spiders.
> >> Not to be a smart guy, but I don`t know enough about Jungian ideas.
> >>
> >> Now, if I were exchanging with another person with less integrity, I`d
> >> look at the addition of Jungian ideas here at this point in the
> >> discussion, whose topic is how to judge the intent of an unanswered
> >> question, as an attempt to change the subject. But I do not feel that
> >> this is the case here.
> >>
> >> So I`d like to return to the original discussion after this little detour.
> > I think the collective unconscious concept is needed for
religion to make sense.
> Hmmm...I`ll have to think this one thru, b.
>
>
> --
> --Sawfish
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> "Would someone please tell me what `diddy-wah-diddy` means?"
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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