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On 25.8.2023. 1:42, John Harshman wrote:
> On 8/24/23 4:32 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>> On 24.8.2023. 23:05, John Harshman wrote:
>>> On 8/24/23 1:28 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>> On 24.8.2023. 19:56, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>> On 8/24/23 8:59 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>> On 24.8.2023. 15:34, John Harshman wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/23/23 11:07 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 24.8.2023. 3:45, Glenn wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 7:49:29 PM UTC-7, John Harshman
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/19/23 7:28 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Ok, I figured this out. Definitely 20 years ago it
>>>>>>>>>>> is known
>>>>>>>>>>> that Genetic Mutation Theory was Mendel`s (at least, this is
>>>>>>>>>>> how this
>>>>>>>>>>> came to me), but maybe somebody misunderstood it, because it
>>>>>>>>>>> is based on
>>>>>>>>>>> Mendel`s work.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Conceivably there is some kind of translation problem here.
>>>>>>>>>> But no, you
>>>>>>>>>> are wrong. Mendel`s theory has nothing to do with mutation.
>>>>>>>>>> You admit at
>>>>>>>>>> times that you`re ignorant of evolutionary biology and
>>>>>>>>>> genetics. In
>>>>>>>>>> this, if in nothing else, you are correct.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ayala:
>>>>>>>>> "The rediscovery in 1900 of Mendel`s theory of heredity by the
>>>>>>>>> Dutch botanist and geneticist Hugo de Vries and others led to
>>>>>>>>> an emphasis on the role of heredity in evolution. De Vries
>>>>>>>>> proposed a new theory of evolution known as mutationism, which
>>>>>>>>> essentially did away with natural selection as a major
>>>>>>>>> evolutionary process."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "The controversy between mutationists (also referred to at the
>>>>>>>>> time as Mendelians) and biometricians approached a resolution
>>>>>>>>> in the 1920s and 1930s through the theoretical work of
>>>>>>>>> geneticists."
>>>>>>>>>
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/mutati
onism
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Mario appears more accurate about history than you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks very much. I know that at the time I was seeking
>>>>>>>> info about it, it was called Genetic Mutation Theory in
>>>>>>>> Wikipedia (I believe), and they wrote that all this originates
>>>>>>>> from Mendel, and later this was "re-discovered" by three
>>>>>>>> independent guys, in a matter of two months.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, the quote from Ayala says nothing of the sort. Note:
>>>>>>> "Mendel`s theory of heredity" says nothing about mutation. And
>>>>>>> "De Vries proposed a *new* theory of evolution". The only
>>>>>>> connection between Mendelism and mutationism is that De Vries
>>>>>>> subscribed to both of them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hm, when I read it in the past it was said that de Vries
>>>>>> rediscovered Mendel, and that he introduced the term `mutations`,
>>>>>> and that was all. But Mendel was the originator and the only
>>>>>> important person in the whole story back then, when I have read
>>>>>> about it. Now, I will definitely not waste my time to research it
>>>>>> further because the idea is utterly stupid, and the fact that the
>>>>>> ones who follow the idea search for Adam and Eve only supports my
>>>>>> view on this.
>>>>>
>>>>> I get the idea you`re really talking about something else. What
>>>>> idea is utterly stupid, and who searches for Adam and Eve?
>>>>
>>>> Everybody. Everybody searches for this moment when some
>>>> mutation happened, and like, the original owner of it would be,
>>>> either Adam, or Eve. I cannot believe that you never heard those
>>>> terms, they are all around. They are connected to mutations, because
>>>> the Adam/Eve is the one who first got it.
>>>
>>> Wait, are you talking about mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam?
>>> Those are just fanciful names attached to real things, the most
>>> recent ancestor of everyone`s mitochondria and the most recent
>>> ancestor of all current Y chromosomes. Nothing to do with the
>>> biblical characters of the same names. Nor are they attached to
>>> mutations. It`s quite likely that mt-Eve`s mother had an identical
>>> mitochondrial genome, and likely several prior generations too.
>>> Mitochondria do have a high mutation rate but the genome is also tiny.
>>>
>>>>> But again, Mendel never said anything about mutations, using that
>>>>> term or any other. De Vries rediscovered Mendel *and* De Vries was
>>>>> a mutationist. There is no connection between those two things
>>>>> other than that De Vries entertained them both.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There *is* a *system* (it is so obvious, because it works
>>>>>> on each and every species on this planet, each and every species
>>>>>> improves, even if it eventually goes extinct it *improves* before
>>>>>> that point) that makes things to better adapt, and the idea of
>>>>>> mutation cannot work, because mutations are harmful, in order to
>>>>>> have only useful mutations you would need to win lottery each and
>>>>>> every time, this, simply, doesn`t work, although so many would
>>>>>> like it to work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true. Most mutations are neutral, some are harmful, and some
>>>>> are beneficial. Which ones are which depends quite a bit on the
>>>>> environment. And you completely ignore natural selection, which
>>>>> eliminates the harmful ones and fixes the beneficial ones.
>>>>
>>>> Mutations cannot be eliminated by natural selection, there
>>>> is no time for it.
>>>
>>> That makes no sense. Of course there`s time for it.
>>
>> So, you will carry all the negative mutations along with one
>> positive for considerable amount of time, until natural selection
>> somehow figures out that you have one positive as well?
>
> Natural selection doesn`t figure out anything. Why must you
> anthropomorphize everything? Now, the fitness of a particular genome is
> composed of the sum (or more complicated function) of the fitnesses of
> all the genome`s various parts. So if a beneficial allele at some locus
> is accompanied by deleterious ones at many other loci, that genome won`t
> have a very high fitness. But if that were generally true, populations
> would become extinct.
This is why I am telling you that organism has to get rid of all the
mutations. The ratio of harmful mutations per those "useful" ones should
be enormous. This cannot work per your mechanism.
>>>> Since the waste majority of them are harmful, because they are
>>>> mutations, there is no place for them in the system, they are not
>>>> systematic, as you try to imply, they are pure errors, they have to
>>>> be eliminated.
>>>
>>> And that`s gibberish.
>>
>> Hm, in your world there are only positive mutations, or what?
>> As I see it, you get, by chance, one positive out of million negative.
>> I don`t get how you are imagining all this? One positive, one
>> negative? Or what?
>
> No. But that`s a number you just made up, and let`s recall that both
> deleterious and beneficial mutations are fairly rare, so anyone is
> unlikely to have very many of either, perhaps not even one. Thus the
> mutations that do happen can be exposed to selection individually.
Yeah, right.
>>>> This is like, imagine if there is life on Mars. We have our
>>>> diseases, they have their. If we come to Mars their diseases will
>>>> not affect us, just like pig diseases will not affect us, because
>>>> those diseases work in pig system, and our evolve in our system. Of
>>>> course, there are variations on a theme, pigs can be transporters of
>>>> our disease, but only if we are long time in contact, and things
>>>> like that. In short, for something to affect us it has to be part of
>>>> our system.
>>>
>>> It`s not clear what you mean by "system", and of course there are
>>> many diseases that began in other species and found their way into
>>> humans.
>>>
>>>> This "system", though, can go long time into the past, there is a
>>>> bit of fish, and who knows what, still in us, but it has to be a
>>>> part of us already. No aliens will find home in our body, because
>>>> things aren`t so simple at all. Even Lego cubes, in order to build
>>>> something, has to be made per exact measures. No place for errors,
>>>> there was no "evolution by errors". When evolution started, it was a
>>>> system. This system improved, but its basis always stays the same.
>>>> For example, no matter how smart you are, you never can follow five
>>>> points in space. You will have absolutely no problems with four
>>>> points, but five points is too much. It is too much for humans, but
>>>> this goes for amoeba also, it can defend from four attackers, not
>>>> from five. Why? Because all the nervous systems are based on four
>>>> pipelines, amoeba and human, doesn`t matter. There will *never* be a
>>>> mutation that will give you five pipelines. At least, this didn`t
>>>> happen so far, although it would give you the immense advantage,
>>>> like a difference between 8 and 16 bit computers. Not because system
>>>> with five pipelines wouldn`t be possible, it is because this system
>>>> wouldn`t be possible to implement into body which revolves around
>>>> four pipelines. So, this mutation would be, actually, deadly. Just
>>>> the same, all mutations are harmful, because this is a complex
>>>> interlaced system, no part works on its own, every part has to have
>>>> connections to other parts. You can dream about your mutation
>>>> working, but only because your dreams are childish, and not thorough
>>>> enough.
>>>
>>> And that takes gibberish to a new level. Four pipelines??
>>
>> This is why reading books doesn`t work. I read articles, not
>> books. That way you learn much more, but for sure, if you read books
>> you are expert in knowing that particular book. I am not interested in
>> selected books, I am scooping knowledge, in various ways.
>> This is why we have so many experts in one particular book
>> (Bible), talking stupidity all the time.
>> See, just try to follow the position of five objects around
>> you. This is so easy. But, of course, it isn`t easy for you, first you
>> need to read it in some book.
>> And, my advice, this is well known thing. The next time five
>> youngsters approach to you asking to buy drugs or weapons (or anything
>> illegal), I`ll tell you a secret, these are young policemen in
>> disguise. Yes, there are always five of them. The reason? They know
>> this trick. And you don`t know it, it isn`t written in any book that
>> you`ve read.
>
> You seem to have spent inordinate time failing to answer my question.
>
>>>>>> Besides, when I claim something, I claim it based on
>>>>>> something, not just out of thin air. Changes do happen, while I
>>>>>> would really like to see the evidence of those famous useful
>>>>>> mutations, other than circular thinking. As I said, those people
>>>>>> probably envisage human "intelligence" as the evidence. But they
>>>>>> are completely wrong, there is *no* human "intelligence". So,
>>>>>> human "intelligence" is possible because of mutations, and the
>>>>>> evidence for mutations is human intelligence. Simple as that,
>>>>>> circular thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still don`t know who "those people" are. The evidence of mutations
>>>>> is differences in the genomes of parents and children, genetic
>>>>> variation within populations, and genetic differences between
>>>>> species, all of which are the sort of thing we observe happening
>>>>> and whose causes we know.
>>>>
>>>> The difference is the evidence of change, not the evidence
>>>> of mutations.
>>>
>>> What, in your opinion, causes those changes, particularly the hundred
>>> or so in which you differ from both your parents?
>>
>> I don`t know, I don`t have an opinion. Errors aren`t, for sure.
>
> This despite the fact that we know the major mechanisms of mutation
> quite well?
You mean, Catholic priests know them?
>>>>>>>> Well, I also searched info about those three guys. At that time
>>>>>>>> only one of those had something in his biography (he had only
>>>>>>>> one thing in his biography, besides being involved in this, it
>>>>>>>> was probably de Vries), and the other two had absolutely nothing
>>>>>>>> in their biographies, except that they rediscovered Mendel (I am
>>>>>>>> using exclusively English version of Wikipedia). So, by that I
>>>>>>>> figured out that they were just filling the number, because for
>>>>>>>> something to be accepted the number has to be three.
>>>>>>>> Now I am looking at this in Wikipedia, and somehow,
>>>>>>>> like somebody wants deliberately to nullify what I figured out,
>>>>>>>> suddenly they emphasize only two of those three, although
>>>>>>>> clearly they, themselves, mention that there were three
>>>>>>>> "re-discoverers" in a matter ow two months.
>>>>>>>> Those two are:
>>>>>>>> 1) Hugo de Vries - son of a deacon in the Mennonite congregation
>>>>>>>> in Haarlem
>>>>>>>> 2) Carl Correns - who worked as tutor at the University of
>>>>>>>> Tubungen. I found this university always being involved in
>>>>>>>> falsifying history so that it matches Bible.
>>>>>>>> The third one is:
>>>>>>>> 3) Erich von Tschermak - who was, actually, largely influenced
>>>>>>>> by his brother Armin. Well, his brother was elected member of
>>>>>>>> the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which is a scientific
>>>>>>>> academy of Vatican City, established in 28 October 1936, and
>>>>>>>> Armin became member of it right from the beginning, 28 October
>>>>>>>> 1936.
>>>>>>>> So, Christian religion all over the place.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is typical conspiracy thinking, in which any connection to
>>>>>>> anything, no matter how tenuous, produces guilt by association.
>>>>>>> And your reach has expanded. It used to be the Catholic church,
>>>>>>> and now it`s any Christian sect. I submit that any European or
>>>>>>> American scientist can be connected to Christianity by a very
>>>>>>> short chain of relationships.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course. Isn`t it so obvious? Now, somehow, Vatican
>>>>>> doesn`t have conspiracy? How come, if anybody has it, it is
>>>>>> Vatican. I don`t know in what relation to Vatican those Mennonites
>>>>>> are, though (and I don`t care).
>>>>>
>>>>> This is crazy talk, pure and simple.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The second problem is the problem of nomenclature,
>>>>>>>> which is so obvious. This is called Mutation Theory, but if you
>>>>>>>> try to discuss in a term of a `mutation`, everybody tells you
>>>>>>>> immediately that these *aren`t* mutations, but rather changes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Your pronouns make the sentence conveniently ambiguous. What`s
>>>>>>> "this"? Not anything Mendel was involved in. What are "these"? Is
>>>>>>> somebody supposed to be claiming that mutations don`t happen?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, of course. Whenever I say that mutations are harmful,
>>>>>> and that this cannot work, the one I am discussion this with (it
>>>>>> could have even been you, I don`t remember anymore) immediately
>>>>>> says that this actually aren`t mutations.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have no idea what you think you`re talking about here. Mutations
>>>>> aren`t mutations? What cannot work? Could you try very hard to be
>>>>> clearer?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Gee. So, these *are* mutations? Fine. I really don`t get how a
>>>>>> person with clear mind can envisage this to work, it`s beyond me.
>>>>>> I know that your brain doesn`t work, that you accept everything
>>>>>> that is written in books without thinking (obviously you didn`t
>>>>>> read Bible yet), so for you this is normal.
>>>>>
>>>>> Again, what are "these"? What is "this"?
>>>>
>>>> "These" and "this" has nothing to do with me, they are
>>>> invented by people who are discussing mutations.
>>>
>>> Sure. but what are they? What were you trying to say in that sentence?
>>>
>>>> You can be "clear" when you are talking about those things
>>>> only if you are God, and you know absolutely everything about
>>>> everything. And people who claim that they know everything about
>>>> everything, are the ones who don`t know much, the fact that God
>>>> created the Universe in seven days is "everything" they think it
>>>> needs to be known. The same way is your way, "Everything is product
>>>> of mutations.". Well, don`t you say. Yes, you are very clear about
>>>> that, lol. How this incorporates into existing system? "Well, it
>>>> doesn`t have to incorporate, you know." Well, don`t you say.
>>>
>>> I`m not quite sure, but I think I don`t say.
>>>
>>>>>>>> Now, if those are changes, why they are not called changes?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What are "those"?
>>>>>> "Those" supposed `mutations`. Set your story straight, it
>>>>>> is your story, not mine (ah, I see, it isn`t your story, you just
>>>>>> read it in books, but you actually don`t understand it, or what?).
>>>>>> So, if "those" are mutations, they, simply, cannot work. If
>>>>>> "those" aren`t mutations (so, it is just wrong nomenclature), if
>>>>>> "those" are just changes, then they aren`t what proponents of
>>>>>> "mutations" claim for them to be.
>>>>>
>>>>> What are the supposed mutations you`re talking about? Why can`t
>>>>> they work, and what would it mean to work?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because you can achieve so much by playing with words (I`ve seen
>>>>>>>> this so many times, being raised in communism). If they would be
>>>>>>>> called genetic changes, this isn`t a big deal, nothing strange
>>>>>>>> about it, everything changes over time, even we change during
>>>>>>>> our lifetime, the change is natural, the change is gradual,
>>>>>>>> after all, Darwin`s theory is about a change. But if you
>>>>>>>> introduce `mutation`, this is completely different thing.
>>>>>>>> Mutations are unnatural, mutations are one-off events, mutations
>>>>>>>> are out of any system, mutations are unsystematic. So now we
>>>>>>>> have, instead of following a simple change which pertain to some
>>>>>>>> particular system, the whole scientific community searches for
>>>>>>>> those unnatural one-off events that produce some out of order
>>>>>>>> unsystematic magic, and the whole scientific community suddenly
>>>>>>>> revolves around Adam and Eve.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don`t think you have any idea what mutations are or what
>>>>>>> scientists think they are. Nobody thinks that mutations are
>>>>>>> unnatural (well, except for some IDers; but not scientists).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mutations are errors. Simple as that.
>>>>>
>>>>> "Error" is a value-laden word, implying that someone is making a
>>>>> mistake. But there isn`t anybody involved. We call them errors if
>>>>> they result in a different sequence than was there before, though
>>>>> in fact we don`t call recombination an error or a mutation, and it
>>>>> results in a different sequence. Go figure.
>>>>
>>>> Different sequence? What bloody sequence? "Sequences" don`t
>>>> program the making of a body. I know that sequences are involved,
>>>> but if you can tell me *how* a specific sequence works, I`ll buy you
>>>> another beer, :) .
>>>
>>> Well, some sequences get translated into proteins, some produce
>>> functional RNAs, some arer targets of transcription factors or other
>>> regulatory molecules, and others are just junk. We know how quite a
>>> few of them work. There`s a whole body of science involving this. If
>>> you`re interested in development, I recommend a number of books by
>>> the biologist Sean Carroll (not to be confused with the physicist of
>>> the same name).
>>
>> I`ll be interested when they make me a dog with wings, made
>> out of materials that they dug from the ground, and he has to have
>> pink fur (not that I fancy pink, :), it is just an unnatural color for
>> fur).
>
> So you no longer care whether I can tell you how a specific sequence
> works? I`m thinking that your promises to buy me a beer are not honestly
> made.
Well, after you tell me, I will tell you how Moon rocket is made. I
will not make it myself, of course, I will just tell you about it.
>>>>>> In order to have one "useful" error, you have to have millions of
>>>>>> wrong lottery tickets. So, this theory works against itself,
>>>>>> because the winner would be the one who *doesn`t have* errors, and
>>>>>> not the one who has it so much that he even got the winning one. I
>>>>>> would always win a lottery if I buy all the lottery tickets,
>>>>>> otherwise no. This, simply, doesn`t work.
>>>>>
>>>>> You made up a distribution from thin air and forgot entirely about
>>>>> natural selection.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the real truth is, all this doesn`t exist at all.
>>>>>>>> Those genetic changes are just simple changes, there are no
>>>>>>>> unnatural events, no "mutations" (just like everybody is so fast
>>>>>>>> to tell you). So, what`s the fuss, then? The fuss is in the fact
>>>>>>>> that scientists don`t bloody understand what they are doing at
>>>>>>>> all, they are pulled by their noses, this is what the fuss is.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think you don`t understand what you`re doing at all, and all
>>>>>>> the pronouns in the world can`t disguise that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I think that you, simply, don`t understand anything,
>>>>>> simple as that. This is why you rely so much on books.
>>>>>
>>>>> Better books than fantasies based on ignorance, wouldn`t you say?
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