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On Friday, September 15, 2023 at 7:07:21 PM UTC+5:30, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 5:30:17 PM UTC-4, Ross Clark wrote:
> > On 15/09/2023 3:18 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 6:01:07 PM UTC-4, Ross Clark wrote:
> > >> On 14/09/2023 4:24 a.m., Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >>> On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 12:43:57 AM UTC-4,
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >>>> Tue, 12 Sep 2023 13:57:52 -0700 (PDT): "Peter T. Daniels"
> > >>>> <
petert...@gmail.com> scribeva:
> > >>>>> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 2:21:35?PM UTC-4, Dingbat wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Saturday, September 2, 2023 at 4:54:33?PM UTC+5:30,
bruce bowser wrote:
>
> > >>>>>>> This Is the Most Mispronounced State in the U.S.
> > >>>>>>> Yahoo News - Sept 28, 2020
--https://www.yahoo.com/video/most-mispronounced-state-u-182706349.html#:~:text=
Illinois%20has%20a%20silent%20%22s,Mispronounced%20City%20in%20the%20U.S.
> > >>>>>> Illinois and Detroit were French spellings. Ois was an
adjectival suffix. Is there
> > >>>>>> a correct way to deviate from French pronunciation? How
must Anglophones
> > >>>>>> pronounce Malinois?
> > >>>>>
is the expected French spelling of the local
word for `people`,
> > >>>>> eleniwa. Many Native American tribe names used in English are simply
> > >>>>> the word for "people."
> > >>>> No: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois#Etymology
> > >>> Ok, "citation needed" knows more about the Algonquian languages
> > >>> than Leonard Bloomfield and Charles F. Hockett.
> > >> The citations are there at the end of the paragraph:
> > > The footnote at the top consists of "[citation needed]."
> > There are six footnotes ([14] through [19]) in the "Etymology" section,
> > plus one "[citation needed]", roughly in the middle,
> Right at the top, after the claim that illiniwek was transformed
> within French.
As far as I remember, the k is a plural suffix that the French replaced
with a French adjectival suffix ois.
> > which you seized on
> > to give the impression that this was just baseless speculation.
> No; that the Wikiparticle is as reliable as most Wikiparticles.
> > >> [18] Callary, Edward (2008). Place Names of Illinois. University of
> > >> Illinois Press. p. 169.
> > >> [19] Costa, David J. (January 2007). "Three American Placenames:
> > >> Illinois" (PDF). Society for the Study of the Indigenous Languages of
> > >> the Americas Newsletter. 25 (4): 9-12.
> > >> The latter seems to be the primary source of the revised etymology.
> > >> Costa`s article is actually online:
https://web.archive.org/web/20110716151840/http://myaamia.strackattack.com/Other
Files/CostaNewsletter.pdf#page=9
> > > [curiously, that opened to the first page rather than to p.9]
> > > Costa dismisses a whole lot of red herrings, and does not refute
> > > anything I said: " is the expected French spelling of the local
> > > [I don`t know where the Ottawa were; not necessarily where the modern
> > > city is]
> >
> > You could look it up: southern Ontario and northern Michigan.
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottawa language
> >
> > > word for `people`, eleniwa. [Costa seems to think that the Jesuits
> > > were using some sort of IPA and intentionally failed to
notate the length of
> > > an [e:].)
> >
> > Costa: "Thus, the etymology of `Illinois` meaning `man` is not
> > linguistically supportable, and is no more than a folk etymology."
> > That sounds like a contradiction of what you said.
> > Many Native American tribe names used in English are simply
> > > the word for "people." [You`re not going to deny that, are you?]
> > Self-designations by many peoples around the world mean "(normal,real)
> > people".
> >
> > Also: The names we have for peoples are sometimes not their own
> > self-designation, but one used by neighbouring people. That seems to be
> > what Costa is arguing.
> You really are a Cooper. Did I say that "Illinois" comes from the Miami-
> Illinois language?
>
> IIRC, one day Hockett mentioned that there was a viable Illinois-speaking
> community in the 1930s but there weren`t enough graduate students for
> one of them, to go and study it, and then it was extinct. Or w2as that Iowa?
> > >> The same issue of the newsletter, as it happens, contains an obituary
> > >> and tributes to William Bright. Bright`s Native American Placenames
> > >> seems to accept Costa`s account.
> > > (An earlier version, of course.) He has no explanation for
the loss of the -k.
> This is a fairly significant point.
> > >> I didn`t see a mention of Bloomfield or Hockett in any of this. The
> > >> people cited for the old (incorrect) etymology are:
> > > My term paper for Hockett`s Algonquian seminar was a word-index to
> > > Bloomfield`s Algonquian sketch, as reprinted in Hockett`s *A Leonard
> > > Bloomfield Anthology* (which surely is on the shelf of every Cornellian).
> > > Unfortunately I do not know where my copy is. Hockett told me he
> > > duplicated it and distributed it to the Algonquianist
community, so I lit it
> > > as my first publication (1971). So maybe Ives Goddard or Victor Golla has
> > > a copy.
> > > Years later I asked the editor of *Anthropological Linguistics* whether
> > > it was publishable, and he claimed it wasn`t needed because computers.
> > > Maybe I should have asked at *IJAL*.
> > > I suppose you`re going to pull a Cooper and claim that because I can`t
> > > give you a page and line reference, that doesn`t count.
> >
> > Page and line reference to what?
> The discussion of eleniwa, of course. You really are turning into Cooper.
> > >> F.W. Hodge, Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico,
Volume 1 (1911)
> > >> George R.Stewart, Names on the Land (1945)
> > > Pre-Bloomfield. Feh.
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