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@REPLYADDR John Harshman
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@REPLYTO 2:5075/128 John Harshman
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On 8/24/23 1:28 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
> On 24.8.2023. 19:56, John Harshman wrote:
>> On 8/24/23 8:59 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>> On 24.8.2023. 15:34, John Harshman wrote:
>>>> On 8/23/23 11:07 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>> On 24.8.2023. 3:45, Glenn wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, August 19, 2023 at 7:49:29 PM UTC-7, John Harshman
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8/19/23 7:28 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ok, I figured this out. Definitely 20 years ago it is
>>>>>>>> known
>>>>>>>> that Genetic Mutation Theory was Mendel`s (at least, this is how
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> came to me), but maybe somebody misunderstood it, because it is
>>>>>>>> based on
>>>>>>>> Mendel`s work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Conceivably there is some kind of translation problem here. But
>>>>>>> no, you
>>>>>>> are wrong. Mendel`s theory has nothing to do with mutation. You
>>>>>>> admit at
>>>>>>> times that you`re ignorant of evolutionary biology and genetics. In
>>>>>>> this, if in nothing else, you are correct.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ayala:
>>>>>> "The rediscovery in 1900 of Mendel`s theory of heredity by the
>>>>>> Dutch botanist and geneticist Hugo de Vries and others led to an
>>>>>> emphasis on the role of heredity in evolution. De Vries proposed a
>>>>>> new theory of evolution known as mutationism, which essentially
>>>>>> did away with natural selection as a major evolutionary process."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The controversy between mutationists (also referred to at the
>>>>>> time as Mendelians) and biometricians approached a resolution in
>>>>>> the 1920s and 1930s through the theoretical work of geneticists."
>>>>>>
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/mutati
onism
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mario appears more accurate about history than you.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks very much. I know that at the time I was seeking
>>>>> info about it, it was called Genetic Mutation Theory in Wikipedia
>>>>> (I believe), and they wrote that all this originates from Mendel,
>>>>> and later this was "re-discovered" by three independent guys, in a
>>>>> matter of two months.
>>>>
>>>> No, the quote from Ayala says nothing of the sort. Note: "Mendel`s
>>>> theory of heredity" says nothing about mutation. And "De Vries
>>>> proposed a *new* theory of evolution". The only connection between
>>>> Mendelism and mutationism is that De Vries subscribed to both of them.
>>>
>>> Hm, when I read it in the past it was said that de Vries
>>> rediscovered Mendel, and that he introduced the term `mutations`, and
>>> that was all. But Mendel was the originator and the only important
>>> person in the whole story back then, when I have read about it. Now,
>>> I will definitely not waste my time to research it further because
>>> the idea is utterly stupid, and the fact that the ones who follow the
>>> idea search for Adam and Eve only supports my view on this.
>>
>> I get the idea you`re really talking about something else. What idea
>> is utterly stupid, and who searches for Adam and Eve?
>
> Everybody. Everybody searches for this moment when some
> mutation happened, and like, the original owner of it would be, either
> Adam, or Eve. I cannot believe that you never heard those terms, they
> are all around. They are connected to mutations, because the Adam/Eve is
> the one who first got it.
Wait, are you talking about mitochondrial Eve and Y chromosome Adam?
Those are just fanciful names attached to real things, the most recent
ancestor of everyone`s mitochondria and the most recent ancestor of all
current Y chromosomes. Nothing to do with the biblical characters of the
same names. Nor are they attached to mutations. It`s quite likely that
mt-Eve`s mother had an identical mitochondrial genome, and likely
several prior generations too. Mitochondria do have a high mutation rate
but the genome is also tiny.
>> But again, Mendel never said anything about mutations, using that term
>> or any other. De Vries rediscovered Mendel *and* De Vries was a
>> mutationist. There is no connection between those two things other
>> than that De Vries entertained them both.
>>
>>> There *is* a *system* (it is so obvious, because it works on
>>> each and every species on this planet, each and every species
>>> improves, even if it eventually goes extinct it *improves* before
>>> that point) that makes things to better adapt, and the idea of
>>> mutation cannot work, because mutations are harmful, in order to have
>>> only useful mutations you would need to win lottery each and every
>>> time, this, simply, doesn`t work, although so many would like it to
>>> work.
>>
>> Not true. Most mutations are neutral, some are harmful, and some are
>> beneficial. Which ones are which depends quite a bit on the
>> environment. And you completely ignore natural selection, which
>> eliminates the harmful ones and fixes the beneficial ones.
>
> Mutations cannot be eliminated by natural selection, there is
> no time for it.
That makes no sense. Of course there`s time for it.
> Since the waste majority of them are harmful, because
> they are mutations, there is no place for them in the system, they are
> not systematic, as you try to imply, they are pure errors, they have to
> be eliminated.
And that`s gibberish.
> This is like, imagine if there is life on Mars. We have
> our diseases, they have their. If we come to Mars their diseases will
> not affect us, just like pig diseases will not affect us, because those
> diseases work in pig system, and our evolve in our system. Of course,
> there are variations on a theme, pigs can be transporters of our
> disease, but only if we are long time in contact, and things like that.
> In short, for something to affect us it has to be part of our system.
It`s not clear what you mean by "system", and of course there are many
diseases that began in other species and found their way into humans.
> This "system", though, can go long time into the past, there is a bit of
> fish, and who knows what, still in us, but it has to be a part of us
> already. No aliens will find home in our body, because things aren`t so
> simple at all. Even Lego cubes, in order to build something, has to be
> made per exact measures. No place for errors, there was no "evolution by
> errors". When evolution started, it was a system. This system improved,
> but its basis always stays the same. For example, no matter how smart
> you are, you never can follow five points in space. You will have
> absolutely no problems with four points, but five points is too much. It
> is too much for humans, but this goes for amoeba also, it can defend
> from four attackers, not from five. Why? Because all the nervous systems
> are based on four pipelines, amoeba and human, doesn`t matter. There
> will *never* be a mutation that will give you five pipelines. At least,
> this didn`t happen so far, although it would give you the immense
> advantage, like a difference between 8 and 16 bit computers. Not because
> system with five pipelines wouldn`t be possible, it is because this
> system wouldn`t be possible to implement into body which revolves around
> four pipelines. So, this mutation would be, actually, deadly. Just the
> same, all mutations are harmful, because this is a complex interlaced
> system, no part works on its own, every part has to have connections to
> other parts. You can dream about your mutation working, but only because
> your dreams are childish, and not thorough enough.
And that takes gibberish to a new level. Four pipelines??
>>> Besides, when I claim something, I claim it based on
>>> something, not just out of thin air. Changes do happen, while I would
>>> really like to see the evidence of those famous useful mutations,
>>> other than circular thinking. As I said, those people probably
>>> envisage human "intelligence" as the evidence. But they are
>>> completely wrong, there is *no* human "intelligence". So, human
>>> "intelligence" is possible because of mutations, and the evidence for
>>> mutations is human intelligence. Simple as that, circular thinking.
>>
>> Still don`t know who "those people" are. The evidence of mutations is
>> differences in the genomes of parents and children, genetic variation
>> within populations, and genetic differences between species, all of
>> which are the sort of thing we observe happening and whose causes we
>> know.
>
> The difference is the evidence of change, not the evidence of
> mutations.
What, in your opinion, causes those changes, particularly the hundred or
so in which you differ from both your parents?
>>>>> Well, I also searched info about those three guys. At that time
>>>>> only one of those had something in his biography (he had only one
>>>>> thing in his biography, besides being involved in this, it was
>>>>> probably de Vries), and the other two had absolutely nothing in
>>>>> their biographies, except that they rediscovered Mendel (I am using
>>>>> exclusively English version of Wikipedia). So, by that I figured
>>>>> out that they were just filling the number, because for something
>>>>> to be accepted the number has to be three.
>>>>> Now I am looking at this in Wikipedia, and somehow, like
>>>>> somebody wants deliberately to nullify what I figured out, suddenly
>>>>> they emphasize only two of those three, although clearly they,
>>>>> themselves, mention that there were three "re-discoverers" in a
>>>>> matter ow two months.
>>>>> Those two are:
>>>>> 1) Hugo de Vries - son of a deacon in the Mennonite congregation in
>>>>> Haarlem
>>>>> 2) Carl Correns - who worked as tutor at the University of
>>>>> Tubungen. I found this university always being involved in
>>>>> falsifying history so that it matches Bible.
>>>>> The third one is:
>>>>> 3) Erich von Tschermak - who was, actually, largely influenced by
>>>>> his brother Armin. Well, his brother was elected member of the
>>>>> Pontifical Academy of Sciences, which is a scientific academy of
>>>>> Vatican City, established in 28 October 1936, and Armin became
>>>>> member of it right from the beginning, 28 October 1936.
>>>>> So, Christian religion all over the place.
>>>>
>>>> This is typical conspiracy thinking, in which any connection to
>>>> anything, no matter how tenuous, produces guilt by association. And
>>>> your reach has expanded. It used to be the Catholic church, and now
>>>> it`s any Christian sect. I submit that any European or American
>>>> scientist can be connected to Christianity by a very short chain of
>>>> relationships.
>>>
>>> Of course. Isn`t it so obvious? Now, somehow, Vatican
>>> doesn`t have conspiracy? How come, if anybody has it, it is Vatican.
>>> I don`t know in what relation to Vatican those Mennonites are, though
>>> (and I don`t care).
>>
>> This is crazy talk, pure and simple.
>>
>>>>> The second problem is the problem of nomenclature, which
>>>>> is so obvious. This is called Mutation Theory, but if you try to
>>>>> discuss in a term of a `mutation`, everybody tells you immediately
>>>>> that these *aren`t* mutations, but rather changes.
>>>>
>>>> Your pronouns make the sentence conveniently ambiguous. What`s
>>>> "this"? Not anything Mendel was involved in. What are "these"? Is
>>>> somebody supposed to be claiming that mutations don`t happen?
>>>
>>> Oh, of course. Whenever I say that mutations are harmful,
>>> and that this cannot work, the one I am discussion this with (it
>>> could have even been you, I don`t remember anymore) immediately says
>>> that this actually aren`t mutations.
>>
>> I have no idea what you think you`re talking about here. Mutations
>> aren`t mutations? What cannot work? Could you try very hard to be
>> clearer?
>>
>>> Gee. So, these *are* mutations? Fine. I really don`t get how a person
>>> with clear mind can envisage this to work, it`s beyond me. I know
>>> that your brain doesn`t work, that you accept everything that is
>>> written in books without thinking (obviously you didn`t read Bible
>>> yet), so for you this is normal.
>>
>> Again, what are "these"? What is "this"?
>
> "These" and "this" has nothing to do with me, they are invented
> by people who are discussing mutations.
Sure. but what are they? What were you trying to say in that sentence?
> You can be "clear" when you are talking about those things only
> if you are God, and you know absolutely everything about everything. And
> people who claim that they know everything about everything, are the
> ones who don`t know much, the fact that God created the Universe in
> seven days is "everything" they think it needs to be known. The same way
> is your way, "Everything is product of mutations.". Well, don`t you say.
> Yes, you are very clear about that, lol. How this incorporates into
> existing system? "Well, it doesn`t have to incorporate, you know." Well,
> don`t you say.
I`m not quite sure, but I think I don`t say.
>>>>> Now, if those are changes, why they are not called changes?
>>>>
>>>> What are "those"?
>>> "Those" supposed `mutations`. Set your story straight, it is
>>> your story, not mine (ah, I see, it isn`t your story, you just read
>>> it in books, but you actually don`t understand it, or what?). So, if
>>> "those" are mutations, they, simply, cannot work. If "those" aren`t
>>> mutations (so, it is just wrong nomenclature), if "those" are just
>>> changes, then they aren`t what proponents of "mutations" claim for
>>> them to be.
>>
>> What are the supposed mutations you`re talking about? Why can`t they
>> work, and what would it mean to work?
>>
>>>>> Because you can achieve so much by playing with words (I`ve seen
>>>>> this so many times, being raised in communism). If they would be
>>>>> called genetic changes, this isn`t a big deal, nothing strange
>>>>> about it, everything changes over time, even we change during our
>>>>> lifetime, the change is natural, the change is gradual, after all,
>>>>> Darwin`s theory is about a change. But if you introduce `mutation`,
>>>>> this is completely different thing. Mutations are unnatural,
>>>>> mutations are one-off events, mutations are out of any system,
>>>>> mutations are unsystematic. So now we have, instead of following a
>>>>> simple change which pertain to some particular system, the whole
>>>>> scientific community searches for those unnatural one-off events
>>>>> that produce some out of order unsystematic magic, and the whole
>>>>> scientific community suddenly revolves around Adam and Eve.
>>>>
>>>> I don`t think you have any idea what mutations are or what
>>>> scientists think they are. Nobody thinks that mutations are
>>>> unnatural (well, except for some IDers; but not scientists).
>>>
>>> Mutations are errors. Simple as that.
>>
>> "Error" is a value-laden word, implying that someone is making a
>> mistake. But there isn`t anybody involved. We call them errors if they
>> result in a different sequence than was there before, though in fact
>> we don`t call recombination an error or a mutation, and it results in
>> a different sequence. Go figure.
>
> Different sequence? What bloody sequence? "Sequences" don`t
> program the making of a body. I know that sequences are involved, but if
> you can tell me *how* a specific sequence works, I`ll buy you another
> beer, :) .
Well, some sequences get translated into proteins, some produce
functional RNAs, some arer targets of transcription factors or other
regulatory molecules, and others are just junk. We know how quite a few
of them work. There`s a whole body of science involving this. If you`re
interested in development, I recommend a number of books by the
biologist Sean Carroll (not to be confused with the physicist of the
same name).
>>> In order to have one "useful" error, you have to have millions of
>>> wrong lottery tickets. So, this theory works against itself, because
>>> the winner would be the one who *doesn`t have* errors, and not the
>>> one who has it so much that he even got the winning one. I would
>>> always win a lottery if I buy all the lottery tickets, otherwise no.
>>> This, simply, doesn`t work.
>>
>> You made up a distribution from thin air and forgot entirely about
>> natural selection.
>>
>>>>> But the real truth is, all this doesn`t exist at all.
>>>>> Those genetic changes are just simple changes, there are no
>>>>> unnatural events, no "mutations" (just like everybody is so fast to
>>>>> tell you). So, what`s the fuss, then? The fuss is in the fact that
>>>>> scientists don`t bloody understand what they are doing at all, they
>>>>> are pulled by their noses, this is what the fuss is.
>>>>
>>>> I think you don`t understand what you`re doing at all, and all the
>>>> pronouns in the world can`t disguise that.
>>>
>>> And I think that you, simply, don`t understand anything,
>>> simple as that. This is why you rely so much on books.
>>
>> Better books than fantasies based on ignorance, wouldn`t you say?
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